Red 850R Trackday Toy ...the resurrection begins...

Post 776257 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2015-06-18 18:42:52

https://goo.gl/photos/ECLEfDwsx1hLbi6W8 So some of you will be very familiar with this car.....it once belonged to a fella named Elliot....and it went very fast. That is until it went bang....not sure of the exact details, but something to do with a failed engine I think [feel free to chip in if you know the full story :)] Any how, it got broken & by the looks of the old threads there's quite a few members who have bits of the original car tucked away! The chassis along with quite a few bits that nobody wanted went into dry storage at a farm in Lowestoft to be brought back to life by Martin, however it never got started due to the various other projects he has had going & very recently he put it up for sale - well to be specific, the roll cage went up for sale - we did a deal to keep the car intact. So, I'm now the proud owner of a lump of pink metal on pallets with a lovely shiny roll cage embedded inside. Couldn't be happier :) Fortunately for me Martin has kept lots of the original bits from the car - though the shell is pretty much naked - it wont be complete but just about rolling to get it on to the trailer. No interior, no brakes or suspension [I'm supplying front struts & wheels to get it rolling - martins going to bolt on the subframes for me!] Its going to need quite a lot of work to get it to the spec I'm after but fortunately Mr William has been enlisted so it should be relatively painless: 2.5 bottom end & mr Williams head turbo tbc, but no smaller than an OD 19t m56 w/gripper Meth Bigger alloy IC & Rad Bigger MAF & intake pipework Big injectors DP, sports cat & SS exhaust - size tbc Coilovers - GaZ/KWs Big brakes - tbc, probably ap's or similar 17/18" Team Dynamic wheels Even more stripping out - going to try & peel as many kilos off it as possible Anything else Tim can think of...& feel free to make your own suggestions, more the merrier:) I've got quite a stockpile of performance parts stashed away already for 850's so I'll dig into that as well as trawling the forums & the dreaded 'Bay for other bits to try & keep costs down. However it will cost what it costs & I wont be cutting corners. Cosmetically, if anyone has ever seen the Peter Brock number 5 Car from Aussie touring car back in the 90's you'll get the idea, probably wont go down the full decal route, but you never know!! [ATTACH=CONFIG]29206[/ATTACH] I do want it road legal if we can mange it so that it can be driven to the track as having to trailer it about would be a bit of a pain in the arse, just depends if it'll make an MOT. Life is compromise. This may well be a slow burner of a project, set a provisional finish for next may, maybe in time for the ring..but between my workload & Tim's we'll just have to see - the best things in life are worth waiting for!! Thanks for reading, all the best, Morgan

Post 776258 by claymore on 2015-06-18 18:47:39

Looking forward to watching this develop :)

Post 776271 by Ettienne on 2015-06-18 20:10:02

I'd not use a 19t, just go for a new k24, so much better turbos and cheap new.

Post 776275 by Nealevo on 2015-06-18 21:17:25

My gearbox and diff came from this car..... Thanks

Post 776276 by Jamest5r on 2015-06-18 21:22:51

My 6 paddle clutch and 4" filter also came from this car :) Looking forward to the updates

Post 776279 by claymore on 2015-06-18 21:33:22

I don't think I have anything off this car :(

Post 776280 by cherry1809 on 2015-06-18 21:43:16

My old alloys came from this car.

Post 776282 by t5 pete on 2015-06-18 21:47:33

Awesome that will be great when done and starting from scratch like it is you know every nut,bolt, linage, bushes, etc etc will all be in top order. One thing tho I think a MOT is a must trailering cars is a rite pain in the arse

Post 776284 by WOODY T5 on 2015-06-18 22:00:14

Looks like it's gunner be a nice track toy�� p.s I got nowt off this car lol

Post 776300 by Redbrick on 2015-06-19 06:57:24

[QUOTE=Ettienne;776271]I'd not use a 19t, just go for a new k24, so much better turbos and cheap new.[/QUOTE] I would disagree! For longevity go with a 19T.

Post 776317 by Ettienne on 2015-06-19 11:26:25

[QUOTE=Redbrick;776300]I would disagree! For longevity go with a 19T.[/QUOTE] Mines on 150k and boosts to 16psi at 2,000 rpm, no smoke no issues had 3 other s60rs again no issues and they out perform 19ts with flow and coming on boost. Had a few 19t equipped cars too, but either will be an improvement, if you want more lag and less flow, definately a 19t is what you need.

Post 776330 by JT on 2015-06-19 17:33:11

I have the TW head and cams off this car Although, they are currently being modified even more :) Glad the car is in 1 piece. I would have had it, but by the time I made my mind up, it was sold. I hire trailers for £40 a day, cheaper than buying 1, don't have to store it or maintain it! Good luck with the build, watching with interest:)

Post 776333 by Redbrick on 2015-06-19 18:26:05

[QUOTE=Ettienne;776317]Mines on 150k and boosts to 16psi at 2,000 rpm, no smoke no issues had 3 other s60rs again no issues and they out perform 19ts with flow and coming on boost. Had a few 19t equipped cars too, but either will be an improvement, if you want more lag and less flow, definately a 19t is what you need.[/QUOTE] I'm pleased yours have survived being pushed so hard.

Post 776334 by Ettienne on 2015-06-19 18:41:04

[QUOTE=Redbrick;776333]I'm pleased yours have survived being pushed so hard.[/QUOTE] They seem to have lasted and I used to drive quite hard sometimes (not now though) my old s60r made 337 and was flat out numerous times, but that didn't even split a liner. Just lucky I guess, I've only had one worn out angle gear collar.

Post 776337 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2015-06-19 19:57:37

Cheers for all the replies.....can't wait to get the car collected early next month. Should have picked it up weeks ago but blew my back at work so that's delayed play. Martin being a top bloke has been very accommodating. Can see the turbo selection has already got a few minds whirring. I was hoping to have gone out in a few different cars today at castle combe with the T5D5 lot to get a feel for different set ups - again back knackered that plan so I'll just have to wait. Lots of options ATM. Cheers, Morgan

Post 776342 by c70geoff on 2015-06-19 21:13:22

Ooooo now that would be nice That's the front splitter I'd love to have on the Turk

Post 777391 by AshDVS on 2015-07-02 14:54:51

Can you post some pics of the starting point?

Post 777392 by S70T5Chris on 2015-07-02 15:13:47

[QUOTE=Ettienne;776271]I'd not use a 19t, just go for a new k24, so much better turbos and cheap new.[/QUOTE] Opinions vary. 19t FTW. This car is going to be a track car. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of a K24.

Post 777393 by S70T5Chris on 2015-07-02 15:18:09

Nice one Morgan. The spec your aiming for is pretty much the tried, tested and proven method most of us have opted for. It makes for a hell of a drive. My 850 is at Tims currently if you wanted to pop up there and have a drive of it.

Post 777394 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2015-07-02 16:11:53

I'd love to Chris - a very generous offer - I'll have to take a rain check as I'm currently flat on my back in hospital with a blown disc, can't walk or drive :( Will send you a pm though as I'd like a bit of a chat about your set up. All the best, Morgan

Post 777400 by Ettienne on 2015-07-02 17:41:04

[QUOTE=S70T5Chris;777392]Opinions vary. 19t FTW. This car is going to be a track car. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of a K24.[/QUOTE] I personally prefer the k24 as in my experience it's less laggy and has made more power. What was the final Dyno result with your Owens development 19t? Did you manage to sort the map as it wasn't performing as You expected I would have thought 350 plus easily with the spec you have. Mine just pipe and map made 337 on 95 Ron, like them or not they do make the power without much work.

Post 777402 by Ettienne on 2015-07-02 17:52:14

Price on k24s has come down a bit from what I remember, brand new complete turbo with actuator exhaust housing etc £495 inc vat (£150 ish surcharge on old core)

Post 777450 by S70T5Chris on 2015-07-03 09:45:33

[QUOTE=Ettienne;777400]I personally prefer the k24 as in my experience it's less laggy and has made more power. What was the final Dyno result with your Owens development 19t? Did you manage to sort the map as it wasn't performing as You expected I would have thought 350 plus easily with the spec you have. Mine just pipe and map made 337 on 95 Ron, like them or not they do make the power without much work.[/QUOTE] Maybe you just haven't driven a car with a 19t that is set up correctly to it's full potential? Long gone are the days of throwing a 19t on, and chucking an old Rica340 ECU in and hoping for the best. Redbrick's 850 made 370bhp with the 2.5, 19t and supporting mods on a Maha dyno. I believe the highest bhp seen on the same dyno with a k24 was around 10bhp less on an S60R with a flowed head/WI/etc. Not that peak HP really says what is what. If you were to drive Redbricks or my 850 you would find it is anything but laggy, it's savage, from any gear at any revs. 60-100 times about 1 second quicker than my old S70 with a new K24, and that was heavily modified too. Why ask questions you know the answer to? You know that my S60 made three thirty something on the dyno day. And you know that it has been remapped since then. On that day, the car was running an MTE stage 2 remap for a K24, and when it went on the dyno, the boost was pulsing up and down (for some unknown reason, it's not something that happened on the road). I agree, and if you wanted to put a figure on the car, I would expect a peak figure of around 350bhp. At some stage I'll get it on a random number generator to put your mind at rest. Second hand K24's are a waste of time. At factory boost they cope ok, but as soon as you up the boost they become a ticking time bomb. How many people who use a K24 on their car use their car on track? And I don't mean a 15 second blast up a drag strip, or one or two teaser track sessions, or one full track day a year, I mean actually use their car in anger on a track several times a year? I can only think of one, Ashok on T5D5. Ask him how many new K24's he has gone through. A new one will last a while, but I wouldn't waste my money. If you want reliability and longevity, fit a brand new standard 19t. And you should get a good few years of track abuse out of it.

Post 777452 by kmb on 2015-07-03 10:02:03

That seems very defensive (but also very interesting), as an outsider looking in it just appeared Ettienne was providing a personal opinion. :)

Post 777456 by Ettienne on 2015-07-03 11:01:53

[QUOTE=S70T5Chris;777450]Maybe you just haven't driven a car with a 19t that is set up correctly to it's full potential? Long gone are the days of throwing a 19t on, and chucking an old Rica340 ECU in and hoping for the best. Redbrick's 850 made 370bhp with the 2.5, 19t and supporting mods on a Maha dyno. I believe the highest bhp seen on the same dyno with a k24 was around 10bhp less on an S60R with a flowed head/WI/etc. Not that peak HP really says what is what. If you were to drive Redbricks or my 850 you would find it is anything but laggy, it's savage, from any gear at any revs. 60-100 times about 1 second quicker than my old S70 with a new K24, and that was heavily modified too. Why ask questions you know the answer to? You know that my S60 made three thirty something on the dyno day. And you know that it has been remapped since then. On that day, the car was running an MTE stage 2 remap for a K24, and when it went on the dyno, the boost was pulsing up and down (for some unknown reason, it's not something that happened on the road). I agree, and if you wanted to put a figure on the car, I would expect a peak figure of around 350bhp. At some stage I'll get it on a random number generator to put your mind at rest. Second hand K24's are a waste of time. At factory boost they cope ok, but as soon as you up the boost they become a ticking time bomb. How many people who use a K24 on their car use their car on track? And I don't mean a 15 second blast up a drag strip, or one or two teaser track sessions, or one full track day a year, I mean actually use their car in anger on a track several times a year? I can only think of one, Ashok on T5D5. Ask him how many new K24's he has gone through. A new one will last a while, but I wouldn't waste my money. If you want reliability and longevity, fit a brand new standard 19t. And you should get a good few years of track abuse out of it.[/QUOTE] It is only an opinion and the people you quote with bhp figures are again also allowed an opinion, bhp per £ I'd say the k24 is a much better bet. We all know you have spent lots on your s60r and other cars (all power to you) but brass tacks it's not proved currently it's more powerful than a k24 car with 1/4 of the money spent on it. I personally haven't had k24 issues on any of the 4 cars which had it fitted, 3 of which were mapped and all by different companies. Also we aren't talking about a secondhand k24 as new are cheap £500 is not expensive for a new turbo, I've also owned mapped 19t cars, been in them and seen them on dyno's and all have been less powerful than the k24s on the day but that is my opinion. As for a Dyno sheet I would love to see one to see how the improvements you have made worked out in a positive way. To me (again this is my opinion) it seems that you have spent a lot of money with little reward bhp wise, you haven't dyno'd on a (number generator) and achieved more than bhp than a k24 mapped car with exhaust. From what you've said iirc you must have spent £4-5k on the engine alone, to have 3 maps put on the car and not had it on a Dyno, where are you having the mapping done? Most places use dyno's as a diagnostic tool to see where and if alterations are needed. If it was me I'd have it dyno'd and take your place on the bhp board, hopefully close to the top! Isn't your running a Owens development 19t which isn't standard 19t. I had a conversation about the Owens development turbo at the vine with Scott (olive 850) who said he bought the prototype version and iirc was disappointed with its quality and build and longevity as it failed and it wasn't highly modified inside, but iirc he made 343 with meth inj, intercooler, exhaust etc, which is ok no idea what his spec exactly is but it's on the vt Facebook page iirc. but then I have also heard Owens turbos are highly modified and have a 64mm compressor wheel and clipped blades from Shem, so you here differing opinions As your signature pics says Chris "if it isn't broke don't fix it" which is the route I'd take hence the k24 gets my vote especially a new one.